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With Sully surging, time for Bass to go fish

Nick Sannicandro January 25, 2013 Brandon Bass, Celtics News, Jared Sullinger 153 Comments

With the Celtics struggling mightily of late, fans across the board are trying to find a scapegoat as to whom the problems begin with on their beloved team. While there may be a bit of fault from top to bottom, and no player exempt from blame one has to notice one specific area where a major change is needed on this roster. Since earning the trust of coach Doc Rivers, Jared Sullinger has seized the moment and proven his worth with some gutty performances.

Sullinger has been nothing short of a beast for the Celtics who are in need of a grinder, something they’ve lacked since the loss of Kendrick Perkins. Drafted in the first round, Celtics fans expected that Sullinger would be a key cog to the team and an integral part to the rebuilding process for this team. But given Doc Rivers’ history of making rookies earn their playing time, often sitting out much of their rookie campaign riding the bench, nobody expected that Sullinger would be playing as much as he has. But that in itself should say just how important Sullinger has been to this team. On a team that has no true center, and really no true muscle in the paint, Sullinger is a breath of fresh air to the fans of Old School NBA, one that doesn’t include the fairies that hang out in the 10-12 range despite the fact that they have the body to bang it with anyone in the paint.

Sullinger has quickly become an “untradeable” commodity for Celtics fans, joining only the ranks of Avery Bradley in that category. A team built around defense and grinding out wins, with a coach that preaches that mentality, well… they’ve managed to find two young studs that fit right into that philosophy. Which brings us to the problem at hand.

Brandon Bass is the polar opposite to that philosophy. Months ago, I wrote an article questioning Bass’ toughness and what he really brought to the team. Bass quite simply does not fit in with this team. Bass is a shoot first, hang outside the paint and avoid defense POWER forward. Sounds like an oxy-moron doesn’t it? A power forward that doesn’t like to use his bulk? This becomes even more ironic when you see how well built Bass really is, he isn’t a llama like Gasol, he is built more like Zach Randolph than he is Patrick O’Bryant. On offense, he is a black hole. He is the end of the line on the passing tree, whenever the rock ends up in his hands it is most certain to go up.

One also has to consider what Bass was when he got here. Bass was NOT a regular starter with any of the other previous three organizations he broke bread with, he was one of the first off the bench in Orlando, thrust into the starting role due to injuries, but eventually made his way back to the bench. In Boston we expected that he would assume a similar role until the injuries at the 4 and 5 position started stacking up and Bass was forced to become a starter again. He performed well in said role; and Doc, for fear of his life, could not bench a hot hand for an aging vet (See Bradley v. Allen 2011-12). But somehow Bass was handed a massive contract extension, one comparable to a mid level starter, and assumed the starting position again.

This is not an indictment on Brandon Bass as a player, I’ll be honest he is a decent player, but he is not a fit for this team in the position he has been playing. Put quite bluntly, he is not a starting four in the NBA. He is not a fit for what the Boston Celtics need right now, or in the future. If the Celtics are to rebuild successfully it will be due to a team of toughness and teamwork. Bass presents neither. A selfish shooter on one end, and an indifferent defender on the other. If Brandon Bass is Dr. Jekyll, Jared Sullinger is Mr. Hyde.

In his recent press conferences, Doc has promised that if things don’t change soon, someone has to go. Garnett, Pierce, and Bradley are all safe…the Celtics won’t have the galls to do what they should and trade Rajon Rondo, so who does that leave us with? If Doc is going to make a statement the first domino to fall will be that of benching Brandon Bass for Jared Sullinger. If there is anyone on this team that has earned his minutes and there are very few, it is Sullinger.

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  • Noori

    Everyone knows Jared should be a starter over Bass, but do we really want to weaken our bench further by adding Bass to it? I thought we put Bass in the starting lineup to mask his weaknesses next to KG

    • Curt

      Weaken our bench? At least Bass can MAKE a jump shot.

  • eddysamson

    I liked Bass a lot last season and at the very start of this season, but he has become more of a problem recently.

    Its mostly his hands. He has straight up butter fingers and he cant handle the ball to save his life. I always cringe when he heads towards the basket because he usually gets stripped or misses his dunk attempt.

    Must be why he became a jump shooter. He doesnt have to worry about his hands as much when hes catching a regular pass and shooting right away.

    He’s definitely not what we need right now. I mean last season when the Cs were in a shooting slump Bass was usually the only one hitting his shots…this season hes hitting his shots and yet hes only taking like 2 a game…

    I dunno he needs to work on his handling and his skills at the rim. Theres no reason for him to get stripped so often when someone like Sully can handle it with 2 towers standing over him. Maybe its because Bass always brings the ball low and then goes up whereas Sully trys to keep the ball up.

    • Danno

      Bass is a shorter version of 2006 Perk. Butterfingers with the worst upfake in the NBA.

  • Stephanie

    And why should they have the galls to trade Rondo?

  • KY Celts fan

    We were duped by Bass’s stellar play in a contract year. He got his contract, and now plays like crap. There has to be some GM in the league that wouldn’t mind Bass and Terry on their team.

    • Curt

      The Mavs had them both at one point…why not send them back to Cuban?

      Oh, that’s because Mark isn’t paying players like it’s the Yankees.

      Those two players cost $11M. Good luck moving them both.

  • RedsLoveChild

    Bass is doing to us what Pietrus did a year ago…come from Orlando to Boston, then disappoint the hell out of us.

    • Curt

      I feel like Doc is doing that too, and so is Courtney Lee sometimes…

    • Willow Green

      offensively Pietrus was a disappointment. but id rather have him in our team right now lol.

      too bad pietrus signed a contract. if he was still available im pretty sure we wouldve traded jeff green and bass for a decent bigman and signed pietrus

  • Curt

    I think if you put Bass on the bench and give him a decent big…I really think Darko COULD have worked out…then you can probably get by.

    He’s the main reason we don’t get rebounds. I’d really love to trade him for Luis Scola, but he’s untradable this year.

    How about this:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ayxcfwd

  • Nick Sannicandro

    Stephanie…because Rondo is a matadore on defense he lets his man by SO often, get value out him now before people catch on and realize he isnt even a 2nd team all Defense level player

    • Curt

      How can you guys keep writing that garbage about Rondo’s defense? Do you not know that 1 vs 1 defense isn’t the only part of defense?

      Rondo is third on the team in defensive rebounds. Rondo is in the top ten in steals in the league.
      Rondo is always in the passing lanes when he’s not on the ball.
      Rondo provides great help side defense.
      Rondo is faster than everyone on the team.
      Rondo does let his man by often, and then he pokes the ball out of their grip.
      When Rondo has help, he dominates the full court press/trap.

      I’m not saying he’s the best defender we have, but he sure is hell is one of the best in the league.

      He has more triple doubles than anyone. He hits his open jumpers. He actually knows the defensive rotations and offensive rotations.

      If there is anything to talk about, it is ONLY his poor decisions when making poor passes in order to be flashy/whatever.

      Stop saying it’s his defense unless you have some data that shows it is true. What a joke.

      • Willow Green

        lol dude im a big big big Rondo fan. but youre blind if you dont see the lapses in his defense.

        yesterday he got lost 3 times on a defense. Stealing the ball isnt defense. its just a bonus from playing good defense.

        it doesnt matter if you get 2 steals a game if you let your opponent have open shots with out even contesting it

        • Curt

          Lapses sure, but it isn’t like he gets beat every other time down the court like Pierce, Bass, Gree, Terry, Collins, Wilcox…and those guys get beat half the time because they still haven’t figured out the defense.

          Bad defense is usually the coach’s fault anyway. Why didn’t Thibs have this problem his first season in Chicago???

    • Stephanie

      Is that the only thing you can come up with? His defense has been shaky, but you can’t tell me that the rest of the team is doing much better. He’s the only reason we’ve been able to really compete and what do you expect to get back in return for him?

      If his “matador” defense is the only reason you want to trade him, then I’m glad you’re not a GM and in the position to make decisions for the team.

  • Me

    another one, i just keep saying trade brandon bass

  • Nate

    Trade him for expiring contracts, just get him off the floor

  • NewYorkCelticsfan

    Doc has said on more than one occasion that he doesn’t expect Rondo to expend the same amount of energy (i.e. Bradley’s level) on D as he does on offense, because it would use up too much of his energy, since he goes, as expected fast and hardd on offense. Rondo is a league leader among guards in rebounds and steals. Last I heard, those two things are also about defense. He can’t be expected to do it all. Other guys have to move in and help. Trading Rondo, the top playmaker, who most of the guys depend on to make theirr shots, would be the worst, most impulsive decision made. It would be akin to cutting off one’s legs to save their toes.

    • Willow Green

      Bradley pressures the pg, when the shot clock is almost up. Rondo’s man often ends up with the uncontested 3.

      His style of defense puts pressure on the bigs to come help. im pretty sure an nba player can play defense and offense at the same time, not one way or another.

      If Rondo cant keep his man infront of him the he has below average defense. Rondo is just getting bailed out by help defense.

      • Curt

        Go watch film of the Celtics defense when it worked. There’s a design to it called “Help Defense”. All you’re saying is that he’s forcing his teammates to know they’re rotations and execute them.

        THAT’S something that NBA players should be capable of.

        Sure, he SHOULD be able to stop them one on one…and he does often enough. But you’re acting like this is new. The only problem is that his teammates (Green, Bass, Wilcox) don’t know the defense well enough to make up for it.

        I won’t deny that he has caused Lee some grief by being lazy or slow or whatever. But you guys are still blowing this out of proportion. Go look at some data instead of only remembering the exceptions.

        • Shawn

          Would you trade Rondo for Westbrook straight up? if the answers yes then you don’t realize that Westbrook does the same thing as Rondo and isn’t fully engaged most of the time on defense as thunder bloggers have said. He also shoots a lower percentage and doesn’t know when to pass instead of shoot.

          • Curt

            I agree with you. I think Rondo is more valuable for a team who has good players.

            The only reason I’d accept the trade would be to split up Westbrook and Durant.

            But seriously, who would you replace him with? Chris Paul is the only decent argument.

  • frickenWaaaltaaah

    Except not tonight.

    Give Paul’s old legs the night off. 2 turnovers last night in crunch time means he really needs it because Paul is one of the best crunch time guys.

    Give Jeff the start and play Bass a lot too and call their number.

    Hopefully Atlanta sees what they can do and likes them.

  • Jester00

    For the Record Nick, I called it about Sully give a homey some credit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that Jeff Green would suck

  • NateB

    Bass was excellent last year. Sullinger’s improvement has certainly made Bass less necessary, but I’d say he’s only responsible for about 5% of this debacle of a season.

  • Danno
    • eddysamson

      Except for the part where we’d be left with 5 combo guards and no PG.

      • Danno

        When Bradley Started at Point we were remarkably better on both offense and defense. Start Redick alongside Bradley and let Lee and Terry come off the bench.

    • Curt

      How do you expect the Hawks to get rid of their two best players?

      • Danno

        Smith will be a free agent at the end of the year, and has little to no desire to re-sign in ATL. They will lose him if they don’t trade to get something back for him. They would view Teague as expendable if Rondo is coming in for it.

        • Curt

          Valid viewpoint.

          But you’re telling me that YOU can see how crappy Rondo is, but the Hawks organization can’t?

  • Nick Sannicandro

    If Rondo is so fast like we all hear why is he ALWAYS getting burned by quick point guards. He NEVER matches up against these guys…sure he can run fast in a straight line but laterally and in more relevent situations he has clearly been slow. I know we have alot of homers out here that don’t like it when the star is called out but if you watched Rondo in any other uniform I promise you’d be seeing what so many are criticising rondo on…to be blunt he didnt deserve the all star nod. Irving burned him the other night, Jennings has killed him this year, as did Monta Ellis early in the season, the list goes on with the top tier quick guards that have killed him this year.

    • Stephanie

      It’s funny you mention that, because when I go on other blogs of teams they’re about to play. They talk about how they hate Rondo, but wished he was on their team. It’s this fan base that only looks at his negatives.

      Like Chris Webber said last night during half-time, Rondo has one of the harder jobs on this particular team because he has to orchestrate an offense for a jump shooting team that’s not making jumpers, get back on defense, and attack and find his own shot. It’s different if this team didn’t have contender aspirations and was a bottom feeder, but the pressure to succeed is on him.

      All players have their weaknesses and definitely are up for criticism, but it’s irrational “fans” that expect him to be a flawless player. Get out there and do his job, see how easy it is.

    • eddysamson

      4 triple doubles in half a season and he doesnt deserve to be an all star? LOL! Wasnt he close to a triple double in most of the last few games as well? And how many other games this season was he off by like 1-2 rebounds?

      If anyone didnt deserve it, its KG but then again even when hes cold on offense hes killer on D.

      • Danno

        He has a triple double last night, and because of it, we lost. Sure he had 23 points. It took him 41 minutes to get it. He’s not efficient when he “takes over” a game, and it costs them. And his defense just plain stinks. Just not good. Completely careless risk taking and doesn’t get back.

        • Curt

          So which other PG, who gets close to a triple double on a weekly basis in less than 41 mintues, should we go for?

          If only we could find a replacement for Rondo who has unlimited energy and shoots 100% and forces a turnover on every possession.

          Larry Bird retired, so that’s not possible.

          Feel free to complain about Rondo when you can find a better solution.

        • eddysamson

          LOL we lost because the ENTIRE TEAM couldnt hit a shot. Rondo still managed 11 god damned assists when his team STUNK. Imagine if they hit their shots Rondo would have had 20+ assists.

          Rondo was LITERALLY the only person able to score throughout the whole game with a high FG %.Its not his fault JET sucks, its not his fault Pierce and KG are slumping, its not his fault AB is still getting used to shooting after months of not being able to do A SINGLE THING with his arms, and its not his fault JG is Mr. Invisible.

          I think you might be insane, Danno.

          • Shawn

            and i dont get the inefficient when he shot 10-19 with a lot of the misses coming with 3 seconds or less left on the shot clock.

          • eddysamson

            His only other misses came on jumpers outside of his comfort zone (and he made his only attempts in the same area)

    • Curt

      I didn’t realize this was a 1-on-1 streetball league.

      Here I was thinking it was about a 5 man defense.

      Please tell us all who we can get that would be better.

    • Chulinho

      I understand what you’re getting at, Nick. It also bothers me the way Rondo plays defense at times.

      But, who CAN consistently stay in front of today’s guards? The best way to limit them is with a strong help defense.

      • KGino

        perk made rondo look good on D.. that’s it. Bass can’t, wilcox can’t, we don’t have another big besides KG who knows the defense well enough to mask rondo’s defensive inefficiencies.

  • Danno

    They were immeasurably better on both sides of the ball when Bradley start at point. It’s not about individual player statistics. If he hadn’t INTENTIONALLY tried pas his assist stats to hook Bass up with a trailer layup (which he missed because the lazy pass was terrible) they might have won. He does really dumb things to pad his own stats.

    • eddysamson

      how do you know its to pad his own stats and not to try to get his teammates back in to the game with a confidence booster?

      I hate the botched fast breaks as much as anyone else but I feel like Rondo probably hates losing more than he cares about his stats. Lets not forget that since he broke the streak hes been putting games with more scoring and less assisting.

      • Danno

        yes. and we’ve been losing the majority of those games.

        • eddysamson

          What games? Your comment is too vague when I was referencing two different “sets of games”

    • Curt

      So this had nothing to do with Green getting beat every time by Carmelo Anthony (one of the best scorers ever), or Paul Pierce dropping the ball TWICE during crunch time, or Doc Rivers not demanding that his players drive directly at Chandler and Stoudemire (each had 5 fouls).

      All of this was because of one (embarrassingly) bad decision?

      • Curt

        And I don’t even blame Doc necessarily for the guys not driving at the 5-foul players…the assistant coaches should’ve been all over that news.

  • Nick Sannicandro

    Danno is dead on when rondos going for stats this team loses…think about it how many LOSSES do we have when rondos had a triple double? Someone go look it up and get back to me with this, I’ll bet its over 60% of the time.

    As far as a replacement, If the grizzlies offered Conley and Gay for Rondo and Pierce put all the bullshit aside with salary would you balk?

    • Danno

      Don’t even need to give up pierce to get better.

      Three team trade:

      Rondo + Bass to ATL

      Josh Smith To BOS
      JJ Redick to BOS

      Jeff Teague to ORL
      Fab Melo to ORL

      ORL sheds salary, is already going nowhere. and acquire two young potential stars.

      ATL gets back a solid All Star and a decent backup big for Smith’s expiring contract they can’t re-sign.

      BOS gets instant Frontcourt upgrade and a legitimate Shooting guard to playt alongside Bradley at Point.

    • Curt

      Ok, finally, we’re getting somewhere.

      So Rondo getting Triple Doubles is why we should trade him. We just can’t win when someone is that good. Got it.

      As far as that trade goes, that trade doesn’t work (like you said about the salaries), and Memphis isn’t willing to make it, so I’m not sure why you’d even bring it up unless you’re talking about fantasy basketball.

      However, I would take Rudy Gay for Pierce, but I wouldn’t trade Rondo. He plays well with Rudy Gay (very well), and he knows our offense and defense better than anyone. Losing Rondo and P2 would have the potential to benefit us next year. Giving up both of them is throwing in the towel this season.

      Then there’s the whole issue about this trade being impossible. So why even bring it up?

      http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6nkkbju

      • Danno

        WTF are you talking about?

        This trade works:

        http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bj486l6

        • Curt

          That’s the third time you’ve brought that up.

          You’re the one talking about how crappy Rondo is. You still haven’t explained why the Hawks would take him over Jeff Teauge if Rondo is so crappy.

          The trade can be feasible even if it isn’t realistic…just like Nick’s trade with Memphis.

          This isn’t fantasy basketball.

        • Curt

          That’s WTF I’m talking about. Reality Basketball. The NBA. Where reality happens.

    • KY Celts fan
      • eddysamson

        Thank you thank you thank you. I tried digging up these stats but I’m no stat wizard and couldnt figure out how to google it correctly.

        Now back to my comment where I said:

        “I dont know how many losses do we have in that situation? You best do the research before you run your mouth. Looks like you’re going the wrong way about things right here.”

        annnnnnnnnnnnnd I told you so.

        • KY Celts fan

          you’re welcome, eddy. I’m just curious to see if Nick has the balls to admit that he was wrong. I’m willing to bet that 60% of the time, he won’t

      • Danno

        Oh look. “Butt Lube Celtics Fan” is back, insulting everyone because they disagree with him.

        • KY Celts fan

          hey, kettle, you’re black.

          and I completely proved him AND you wrong. when Rondo “pads” his stats, we win. Celtics have a 85% win ratio when Rondo gets a triple-double.

        • Alex

          Danno, you are CONSTANTLY complaining about the Celtics. I bet even during the 2007-2008 championship run, you were bitching.

          KY Celts actually PROVED the other moron wrong with FACTS so why are you trash talking at him?

          Please gtfo this site, Danno. You contribute nothing.

          • KGino

            Nick doesn’t know much about the Celtics, it would seem.

    • Curt

      What was it that you were betting on this, Nick?

      Come on man, if you’re going to write, use facts, not feelings.

      • stephanie

        Every time I read one of Nick’s articles it’s hardly based off facts. That’s the reason he got ripped on that Danny Ainge reaction article. Everyone has their opinions, but if you dispute something at least have facts.

  • eddysamson

    I dont know how many losses do we have in that situation? You best do the research before you run your mouth. Looks like you’re going the wrong way about things right here.

    • eddysamson

      And does it really count towards your argument if we lost the game by 1-3 points when he got a triple double like last night? Like really…Rondo being the only one doing ANYTHING last night is the reason we lost? LOL right. The stupidity and ignorance of people behind a keyboard (and not on the parquet) is amazing.

      • Danno

        Ease up on the insults, jackass. It’s just Basketball talk. Some people don’t like Rondo. Get over it, he’s not your boyfriend.

        • eddysamson

          I haven’t directly insulted anyone (such as the manner in which you just called me a jackass) aside from saying you might be insane for the things you said. And thats coming from someone who doesn’t necessarily look at insanity as a bad thing.

          Now, think back to last night. Who was shooting the ball well? Pierce had highish points but a terrible FG % and ACTUALLY lost us the game literally lost it twice. JET also lost us the game and was completely absent offensively. AB couldnt hit his shots. Clee didnt get the playing time to impact the scoring. KG was incredibly cold. Bass was nonexistant. Sully did his thing but he only had 7. JG had 9.

          So where did all those points come from? OH YEAH from Rondo. Did you notice HOW he got those points? He had incredible drives to the hoop. Something NO ONE else is doing.

          So tell me in articulated manner HOW Rondo lost us the game.

          Because I’ve been telling you all in an articulated manner how Rondo was the ONLY bright spot in the offensive game last night.

          • Curt

            Eddy, I agree that you probably aren’t justified in calling anyone insane for making the claims we’ve seen. Irrational seems more appropriate. Let me articulate.

            Rondo lost us the games by getting a triple double. He let Carmelo score all those points even though for some reason Jeff Green was guarding him, and it is Rondo’s fault for passing to Paul Pierce too much.

            See…irrational. But what you actually said was “igorance”. I think that’s valid too.

          • KY Celts fan

            In Jeff’s defense, Melo may have scored 28 pts, but he also took 28 shots. So it wasn’t an efficient 28, and JG and PP both made him work for it.

      • Curt

        Yeah, eddysamson, don’t start name calling.

        • eddysamson

          Please point out my name calling in a manner comparable to Danno calling me a jackass. Which is, in fact, exactly what name calling is.

          • Danno

            You claimed stupidity and ignorance in a DIRECT REPLY TO ME.

          • Curt

            no he didn’t…the reply was to his own post.

          • eddysamson

            that was a direct reply to a comment I made that was directed at Nick however I messed up and it posted its own comment instead of a reply.

            Now I wont say I wasnt referring to you. But you weren’t the only one.

  • Danno

    REgardless of Triple Doubles, this stat is clearest:

    When Rondo scores 15 points or more, The Celtics lose more often.

    Rondo has had 18 games where he’s scored 15 points or more.

    The are 8-10 in those games.

    Even more telling: When Rondo has fewer than 10 Assists, They are 6-9.

    When Rondo isn’t playing (because he’s suspended AGAIN) they are 2-2 this year and 11-4 last year.

    • Curt

      Without verifying your conclusion…

      When the Celtics play basketball in the NBA this season, they lose more often.

      Your argument fails when you consider that everyone on the team is playing terrible. Of course they lose more often.

      First people are bitching about the assist streak. Now it’s about him scoring. So his triple doubles are killing the Celtics. I guess Larry Bird should’ve avoided all of his, and it’s a good thing we don’t have Lebron.

    • eddysamson

      So take last night for example. You, Danno, are coaching the Cs. NO ONE can hit a shot to save their life except Rondo.

      Do you:

      1) Knowing the stats you just posted have Rondo continue to feed his cold teammates

      2) Have Rondo take the game into his own hands

      Did you ever consider the fact that the games we lose when Rondo scores over 18 may in fact be because no one else can hit a shot and Rondo had to step it up himself to try to save the team? In a game like that one player who isnt a Durant type player isn’t going to bail his entire team out of their shooting funk. Hes going to do what he can to keep them close and HOPE the rest of the team steps up. Last night, THEY DIDNT!

      • eddysamson

        I mean its obvious to me. Rondo scores 10-16 and we have a better record. WHY? Because everyone else is hitting their god damned shots! This is simple shit here.

        • Curt

          “This is simple shit here.” Classic.

          • KGino

            Curt & Eddie.. You guys are right here. Don’t waste your breath (or finger strength) with people named “RedsLoveChild” or “Danno” or even “Nick Sannicandro”.. some of them have drastic approaches on how to fix this team that aren’t very smart or well thought out.. or their arguments are all hearsay and opinion with little facts to support them.

  • NateB

    Rondo takes the “conserve energy on defense” philosophy to a whole other level. He could play good on-ball defense if he chose to do so – he chooses not to. That said, his contract matches his value, so it would take something really good in return to justify trading him.

    • Curt

      Why does no one understand how help defense works?

      You are supposed to deny dribble penetration. Rondo fails at this more than people would like. There are two other defenders near the paint that are supposed to help stop the easy basket. KG may rotate, but the next guy over doesn’t which leads to an assist.

      It may all start with Rondo, but it ends with someone screwing up his defensive rotations.

      You can’t really expect ANYONE to stop Kyrie Irving all night or to stop everyone on the way to a triple double.

      Rondo still plays amazing helpside defense. Why not blame the coach for having the wrong match up?

      Why does it always fall on one guy?

  • Curt

    I just realized how happy I am to be cheering for a team whose fans go nuts when the defense isn’t effective.

    The Dallas Maverick fans around here don’t seem to understand why defense matters.

    That’s probably why Dirk is so popular…

    I’m proud of you Celtics’ fans!

  • Danno

    because that one guy is a selfish asshole who acts like a little baby a lot of the time, gets himself suspended for his behavior problems, and is the one whose matchup on the other team routinely ends up being the game’s high scorer when they lose.

    Irving, Jennings, Chalmers, Parker, Ellis, Williams, all have torched him this season for 20 +/- points.

    I can’t wait to see Chris Paul tear him to shreds next week. (kidding, hopefully)

    • Curt

      Good job being mad about a bunch of AllStars scoring over 20 points.

      I just can’t BELIEVE it when Kobe Bryant has a good game. Must have been Ray Allen’s fault all those years.

      • Danno

        actually, it was. RAy was a turnstile on D as well. LOL.

        So what you’re saying is, Rondo is the Best, an All Star, one of the top point guards in the league, who has many triple doubles to his credit, but he gets a complete pass on having to play D everysingle time he faces a reasonably good guard on the other side of the ball.

        talk about apologizing.

        Note – Only one of those guards I mentioned is in the All Star game this year.

        Well, two, if you count Rondo.

        • Curt

          No, maybe you should read what I’ve written. I’ve asked for a feasible replacement for Rondo, and I cede that he makes bad decisions.

          What you’re saying is that Rondo is going up against these guys who lead their teams in scoring and is holding them to only 20 points per game. He must deserve an award for holding them to 20 when they usually score more than that.

          The rest of the time I have spent explaining how most everything you have said is illogical and makes no sense…like the Ray Allen thing. So you’re telling me that Kobe owes Ray Allen for him being so good? That Kobe couldn’t have done it without him?

          Give the iPad back to your mother.

          • Danno

            “Holding them to only 20 points”.

            I don’t care if you’re playing against Chris Paul in LA or Chris Herren in a Crack house, if the guy you’re supposed to match up wiht drops 20 on you, you got torched, bra.

          • KY Celts fan

            You can’t have it both ways, Danno. Rondo scored 23 points last night. Therefore, he “torched” the Knicks. But you’re also claiming we lost BECAUSE Rondo scored so much. Which is it? Did he torch the Knicks, or was he the reason we lost?

          • Curt

            So torched means that your defensive assignment scored at or around his average in a given game now?

            I thought that was called “average”.

            The point is, you listed elite basketball players who are expected to score 20 points in a night. You’re talking about Rondo as though he’s the worst defender on the team.

            I know you’re going to just continue being irrational, but please tell me who you want to take Rondo’s place that will score, rebound, assist, steal, and defend.

          • Danno

            Again, he scored 23 because he played nearly the entire game, not because he was “hot”. He went 10-19. Shumpert and Kidd combined for 22 against him. But ALL of those guards I mentioned above torched him for 20+. If one of your key players is consistently giving up 20+ points per night Defense, you can’t exactly say he plays good defense.

          • Danno

            Curt – I listed a bunch of guys who everyone says Rondo is better than, who aren’t All Stars this year. Yet they all dropped 20+ on him. I have a hard time considering a guy an All Star when everyone he plays treats him like he isn’t even there on D.

          • Curt

            No, he got a triple double because he played the entire game.

            If one of your key players has more triple doubles than anybody in the league, then you can’t exactly say he’s the reason you’re losing.

          • Danno

            The point is – if you’re going to be a Championiship contender, and if your “elite” point guard is the guy who is going to lead you there – he’s gotta do better than letting every guy in the league drop 20+ on him.

          • Danno

            If the guy who is getting all the triple doubles is the guy who is supposed to distribute the ball, and run the plays, so the OTHER players on your team can score (which you need to do to win games) – and that isn’t happening – then all the triple doubles are meaningless.

          • eddysamson

            He went 10-19 (52.6%) while the rest of the team combined for 21-57 (36.8%)

            You seriously need to stop trashing on the only player being productive offensively. 23 points + 11 assists is at least 45 points of offense created.

            If anyone is saying Rondo was “hot” its because the rest of the team clearly is NOT.

            You never played along with my scenario where you are the coach. Are you going to keep feeding Pierce, Terry, and KG? Or are you going to give it to the guy actually making his shots.

          • KY Celts fan

            Rondo plays nearly the entire game every night, but he only averages about 13 pts. So he scored 10 pts above his average. That has nothing to do with him playing the whole game. Rondo “torched” the Knicks.

          • KY Celts fan

            And if Rondo is getting triple double, that means he has 10+ assists, which means he has gotten the ball to teammates for them to score. Your reasoning is crumbling around you, Danno.

  • Danno

    Pierce and KG are going through a relatively short shooting slump. This isn’t helping the Celtics, true.

    Rondo ALWAYS plays the way he has this season on D.

  • Danno

    also – anyone who watched the game last night should be able to tell you – Rondo had 23 points because they backed off him and didn’t even play D. He took at least 10 completely uncontested jumpers. He didn’t torch anyone. The Knicks dared him to beat them by himself, and he fell for the bait.

    • eddysamson

      dude what is your deal LOL. I watched the game last night. Here is the exact number of jumpers he made:

      2

      He attempted 4-5 and the 2 he hit were the only 2 he attempted in his “sweet spot”

      Other than that his points came entirely from getting to the basket. Time after time he made these incredible drives slipping between Chandler and whoever else was down low.

      You have GOT to be trolling. He had 10 drives to the basket not 10 jumpers…even the announcers were going nuts over his spectacular drives to the rim.

      • Danno

        He had 19 shot attempts. If he had 10 drives to the basket (as you claim), and 4-5 jumpers(as you claim), where did the other 5 come from?

      • KY Celts fan

        Rondo was actually 3/8 away from the rim, so technically both you and Danno are wrong. He took less than 10, but he didn’t shoot a high percentage either. Though 3 for 8 isn’t that bad.

    • KY Celts fan

      you keep trying to have it both ways. When other teams’ players score 20+ against us, it means they torched us. When Rondo does it against another team, it’s because of some defensive strategy.

  • Danno

    Eddy – you seriuosly NEED to stop telling other peopel what to do. You aren’t a ReEd’s Army moderator or writer. I can hold any opinion I like about Celtics players. You can disagree if you choose. We can even discuss it. But you don’t run this place. Stop bossing people around.

    • eddysamson

      I havent told anyone what to do. I put forth a scenario for you and pointed out that you hadnt played along with it. That has nothing to do with forcing you to do something.

      I am trying to be a voice of reason against your irrationality. Sorry.

      • Danno

        No, you said “YOU NEED TO STOP TRASHING ON THE ONLY PLAYER WHO blah blah blah..”

    • Curt

      Do you realize how much you sound like a 9 year old? I agree with Eddy, you must be trolling. I’m done. I’m happy to give RedsArmy the traffic, but you’re clearly using your mom’s iPad while she’s at work.

      • Danno

        My mother died 13 years ago. Really classy. Again, you and Eddy need to stick to talking basketball and stop trying to be an internet toughguys.

  • Double P

    @Danno: cut your losses and move on. Your doubling down on a failed argument.. The idea that rondo getting a triple double is a detriment to the team is ludicrous. We get it.. You hate rondo

    • Danno

      It’s not a benefit either. Rondo’s triple doubles are taking touches away from guys who we need to score to win. combine that with lackluster defense and its’ a recipe for disaster.

      • eddysamson

        A triple double implies at least 10 assists which implies at least 10 touches which is higher than the league average for assists(touches) for all PGs not named Rajon Rondo.

        • Danno

          and if his points and assists numbers were reversed, we win that game going away.

          • eddysamson

            and the stats being reversed depends entirely, 100%, on his teammates making their shots. Rimmed shots dont count as assists.

          • KY Celts fan

            of course. because it is a lot harder, and therefore much rarer, for a player to get 20+ assists then for a player to get 20+ points. So if Rondo accomplishes a rare feat, then sure, we probably win the game. We also would have won if Pierce had grabbed 20+ rebounds, or if KG had 10+ blocks. Rare statistical accomplishments like this almost always come with wins. It doesn’t prove your argument.

          • Danno

            Shots not taken don’t count either way.

        • Danno

          Rondo had 19 shot attempts.

          Pierce had 15.

          No one else had more than 9.

          9 of Rondo’s 11 assists came in the first half.

          THAT, is a problem.

        • KY Celts fan

          exactly. Rondo leads the league in assists. which means he does more than any other player in the league to get his teammates involved. Sometimes Danno calls this stats padding, sometimes he says it what needs to do. whatever suits his argument at the time.

          • Danno

            It’s helpful when he has more assists than points.

            it’s detrimental when there’s 2 minutes left and you’re tied and you make a completely unnecessary stat-padding attempt to a trailing bass when you had a completely uncontested layup to put you ahead.

          • KY Celts fan

            It’s also detrimental when you pass up wide open jumper to kick it to the inefficient shooter in the corner, or when you fumble two passes for TOs, as Pierce did all in the last minute. Rondo did not lose this game for us. You seriously have no argument.

        • Danno

          In fact, only KG had 9. everyone else had fewer than 7.

  • Nick Sannicandro

    Curt, you mentioned if im going to write use fact not feeling please elaborate pretty sure I used facts here Bass doesnt fit into this offense, he is all shoot no pass minimal defense.

    Rondo is an Olay’ defender …. watch game film and prove me wrong

    • eddysamson

      His comments are 100% in response to your post where you assumed we lost at least 60% of the games Rondo has a triple double in. When in reality we win 85% of those games.

    • Curt

      I’ll preface this by saying that I appreciate you writing something for us to read and discuss. I agreed with your article, and I thank you for your participation.

      However, you said “how many LOSSES do we have when rondos had a triple double? Someone go look it up and get back to me with this, I’ll bet its over 60% of the time.”

      Then KY Celtics Fan posted:

      “According to Basketball Reference
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/
      Rondo has recorded 27 career triple-doubles, and in those games, we’ve lost 4 times. FOUR!”

      I’m not vouching for the accuracy of basketball-references stats, but it’s far closer to factual than your grossly incorrect assumption.

      • KY Celts fan

        and he still hasn’t admitted he was flat out wrong.

    • Curt

      Do you know HOW the Cetlics defense is supposed to work? Do you understand the defensive responsibilties of each position?

      I don’t think anyone has said that Rondo is a perfect defender. Your point that he doesn’t stop every one on every drive has yet to be argued with. The irrationality is in the conclusions you are drawing from that fact.

      You can’t show up unarmed to a battle of arguments and expect a rational basketball fan to agree with your conclusions.

  • KGino

    You guys are stupid if you think Rondo was the reason we lost last night, plain & simple. “This is simple shit” guys

    • eddysamson

      sooooo simple.

  • Curt

    I’ve noticed that the best way to end a thread is to start talking about how the Celtics defense works.

    No one has commented or refuted any of the points I’ve made regarding how the rotation is supposed to work so that 5 guys can contribute.

    Interesting…

    • Danno

      The biggest problem with the help defense is that not everyone busy into it. I know it sounds like a dead horse, but Rondo gambles too much on steals early in the clock, which allows the other team to swing the ball to an open look.

      It also doesn’t help that Sullinger is playing All-Star caliber defense, but the refs are tacking fouls on him like he kicked their dog.

      • KY Celts fan

        Sully is definitely getting the rookie treatment from the refs. bunch of jerks.

      • Curt

        THANK YOU DANNO for talking about something relevant.

        You are correct all the way. That’s what the coaches and players are talking about when they say “buying into the system”.

        Not buying into it means you aren’t willing to do your job though. THOSE people are the problem.

        That being said, Rondo has been gambling too much. Why hasn’t Doc put a stop to this? This is a big issue (that’s obvious based on the traffic on this thread). But is it really a big enough issue to justify trading a constant triple double threat?

        • Danno

          he gambles a bit too much on both sides of the ball. lots of lazy cross court passes getting picked off too. so frustrating to watch. He’s so talented, but it’s the fundamentals that he seems to treat as a suggestion. Take care of the damn ball.

          • Curt

            This season it seems to have gotten worse, but during the playoffs he hasn’t been that way. Maybe he’ll clean up that part and maybe Paul Pierce will shift gears around Playoff time…like he somehow always does.

  • http://redsarmy.com John – Red’s Army

    Name calling is childish and immature… so don’t do it, ok guys? Disagree with each other, or us, but the name calling removes all credibility from anything you’re trying to say

    • Danno

      and by all mean’s leave people’s family members out of this stuff.

      • Curt

        I am surprised at myself for actually populating John and Chuck’s website with this, but I don’t want anyone thinking that I am okay with ad hominem or personal attacks.

        I hope you understand that it has absolutely nothing to do with your mom or anyone in your family. The comment had to do with you acting like a child. I apologize if it upset you, but I feel like the comment was clearly aimed at calling you out for reacting childishly.

    • Curt

      I disagree with you, John. Calling someone a dum dum head sounds completely mature and credible.

      • KY Celts fan

        mmmmm… dum dums.

        • Curt

          The Green and White ones are the best.

  • stephanie

    Nobody’s going to like every player on the team. Westbrook gets the same type of flack from fans when they lose. This is the symptom of losing and the best way is for fans to try and pinpoint what the problem is when 90% they’re wrong. But hey, it’s great for debates.

  • Arthur

    Red’s Army, it’s been fun. And if this dude knew basketball OR could string together a coherent sentence, I’d forgive it. I mean, The Classical this is not, and that’s fine. I don’t always need longreads about how Iman Shumpert is just like Ornette Coleman, if you think about it, or whatever. I’ve enjoyed reading posts about my favorite team written by regular fans.

    But you’re nakedly trolling for pageviews whenever this guy posts. Homeboy can’t even write. Does he have pictures of you guys in compromising positions? It’s been real, but I’m taking my talents to… pretty much any other website.

  • Pauly D

    This is definitely a pageviews move… this charachter just spits whatever he is thinking as gospel, and wheels back when he is proved wrong in the comment section. We arent 5 years old. Stick to Chuck, John, and KWAPT I’m begging you. And it has nothing to do with my agreement or disagreement of what he has to say. Express an opinion, fine. But back it up and stop treating us like a 2nd grade history class.

    Terrible stuff

    • Pauly D

      Or if he is really that pretty let him do sideline interviews like Sager and those ladies that work for sports channels. We never learn anything interesting and all they have to do is repeat what other people say. Perfect job for somebody too lazy to research their own (long) articles.

  • Nick Sannicandro

    Pauly D and Arthur…. would love for you to find a point of my article where I was stating something incorrect. If you took the time to write a useless comment, take the time to back it up with some stats or meat to your statement. I backed up my statement pretty clearly…bass makes this team worse because he is an offensive minded player only, a one way road, Sullinger plays both ends of the floor. Again, find a point in my article where I was wrong.

    As far as the KY Celts fan post , did not see him post the link to that…dont exactly have the time at work to read through each and every of the 145 comments on this article. If that is the case I stand corrected on the statistical end of things but stand firm in my belief that this team is significantly worse when Rondo is the stats guy as opposed to the all around guy. I’d rather him put up 0 points but be efficient in every other aspect than 20 points 10 rebounds and 12 assists while giving zero effort on D. Again, don’t like that I feel that way…sorry but I’ve seen enough basketball to form an educated opinion and stand by it, if you don’t like what I have to say your more than free to ignore it. I’m all for a debate on a topic but to trash someone who puts in time and effort in this to generate conversation on a team we all love is just trash, so if you want to go that route be my guest I’ll take no part in that but if you want to have an educated respectful basketball discussion/debate with me I’m always open to it. Not going to pretend I know it all, nor should any of you, we all have something to learn, its the people that pretend to know it all that know nothing at all.

    • Curt

      You’re right about your article. I have no gripes about it, and I was clear on that part. My question is simply about Rondo…so you would rather have him play all out on D.

      Even though they’re 27-4 when he gets a triple double? You STILL would rather not have him?

      (honestly though, I think he DID play balls out on D for most of those…)

  • Curt

    Trade Bradley NOW. I just saw him get beat by Jeff Teague one time during the Atlanta game tonight.

  • Nick Sannicandro

    To further express my point of view on this….since I am out of work now and can put in a little more effort in my comments back…. my issue with Rondo is that Celtics fans talk about him like he is an all world defender. Fans are confusing steals with solid defense when in reality steals are just a stat that shows how many times a guys gotten lucky on gambles in my books. True defensive stats would be opponents FG% against a specific player, how easily a player is getting open (I know this is not something that is a measurable stat but to those of us that watch enough games…we know). Fans talk about Rondos D like he is Tony Allen, Avery Bradley or Raja Bell but really do you ever see Tony Allen let his man trot past him like we’ve seen Rondos guys of late? Tony Allen is a bulldog as is Bradley…they don’t back down, sometimes to a fault. I’d rather a guy be a bulldog and get over aggressive and get burned rather than to be some passive defender and allowing his guy to skirt by while trying to do the fancy little tip out for the steal. The Rondo approach gives guys the ability to see the floor better once they are past him so they are able to either take it to the lane or pass it out to the open man.

    I also understand the Celtics defense is built on the philosophy of “Help Defense” but the whole premise of Help Defense is having a legitimate big man inside the paint to help defend the paint and make the guard thats skirted by Rondo pay for entering the paint. This worked when Perkins was here as much as I disliked Perkins…but this is where we loop this article right back around to the start….this is why Bass is NOT a good fit on this team, he is built GREAT to help with this type of situation, he jsut doesnt have the balls to actually do what it takes and guard the paint. This is why Sullinger is a much better fit on this team thus why he should start. Remember Big Baby getting all those charges? Perfect example of what we need, someone who is either going to rough up the guys getting in the paint, or make them pay with a rough collision. If you guys want to keep Rondo so much and allow him to pull this crap on D, then you need a legitimate big in the paint. Garnett CANT be the one taking charges and bruising guys around, so its an either or situation here, get rid of Rondo and get a guard that will hold his position or get rid of Bass and make sullinger be the enforcer.

    Pauly D and Arthur…happy I gave you a coherent response ???

    • Curt

      Help Defense isn’t a philosphy Nick. It’s a method.

      Help Defense doesn’t require a big in the paint. The NBA is about matchups. We need players who can stop the bigs in the paint, yes. We have to have players who will rotate to help on defense at the right time. This doesn’t have to be Big Baby. Baby’s value was when he rotated at the right time…and he hustled.

      Since we have established that ad hominem attacks are in poor taste, I would think that would extend to the players as well. Brandon Bass’s lack of defense contribution more likely is from him still not understanding the defense than it is from him not having the testicular fortitude required to move one’s feet.

      I do think that Bass should be the first to go. He’s really the only one I think we NEED to replace as long as we replace him with an appropriate player.

  • Nick Sannicandro

    First, I disagree with the point that you don’t need a big in help D…to me, that is the most effective way to have successful use of the help D. Yes there are cases where you can throw another guard or foward in there to help but in a regular situation where its Rondo on Rose, Rose burns him who do you want stepping in to rough Rose up? Courtney Lee or Kendrick Perkins?

    You hit the nail on the head with Baby….he hustled. Bass is often one of the last down the court….I’m of the cut that I feel that you should hustle every second you are on the court, find me a kid in the college ranks that DOESNT hustle, they want it more, this is part of what is frustrating about the pro game today, they just cash their paycheck a number of nights.

    As far as Bass not understanding the D…he’s been here for a year and a half now, I think he is beyond the point of not understanding it. That is so frustrating when I hear this, not understanding the D tells me he spends too much time with other aspects and not enough time watching film or in the books. Not understanding a concept after a year and a half is everything to do with laziness and nothing to do with comprehension.

    I’m glad we agree on the premise of the article, I’m glad we agree that Bass has to go

  • Me

    bass for mozgov and chandler

  • paul

    Ole Nick is quite the hater, isn’t he?