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Behind the scenes: Chuck and John argue over what the Celtics should do

John - Red's Army (@RedsArmy_John) January 24, 2013 Celtics News 22 Comments

Sometimes, Chuck and I get into heated behind-the-scenes debates over the Celtics (among other things).  They often devolve into wild leaps of logic, exaggerations of each others’ arguments, and name-calling.  Today, Chuck decided he wanted to pull the trigger on some kind of trade.  I have been steadfast in my belief that while the’re no guarantee things will work out with this roster, it’s our best shot at a turnaround.

What you have is a conversation that lasted nearly two hours over Google chat.  After each of us tweeted about it, people asked to see it.  So here it is.

My apologies for the formatting.  It’s a little scattered, but I think you can follow along with it.

9:14 AM  Chuck: as the Lakers continue to suck… do you think the odds of landing Gasol for Green/Bass improve?

  won’t those forwards fit D’Antoni’s system perfectly?

   

9:27 AM me: who backs up pierce

9:28 AM Chuck: kris joseph

  Ainge finds somebody

9:30 AM me: at a time when you argue pierce is done you’re okay with just somebody backing him up
9:31 AM Chuck: only because Jeff Green contributes once every 3-4 games…

9:32 AM Sullinger makes Bass worthless… so I’m fine with that…

  maybe we move a guard for a wing… Lee?

9:33 AM I think I’d rather keep Lee than Terry.. but I doubt anyone is taking JET

9:38 AM me: So do you think Green/Bass are enough for LA to be convinced to give up Gasol?
 Chuck: Probably not… but they seem more desperate than Boston right now
9:39 AM that deal doesn’t work salary wise anyway
9:40 AM me: right… because Gasol makes, what 19 million?
 Chuck: yup
 me: isn’t he the highest paid player in the NBA this year?
 Chuck: kobe must make more
 me: oh yeah

  just looked it up.. $30 million

  jesus

9:41 AM Chuck: i like the thought of Pau and KG playing together the next two years
9:42 AM me: the reality is you’d need to trade pierce or Rondo to get that deal done financially

  and they have Nash… so….

 Chuck: or Lee

  or Terry

9:43 AM me: LA can only take so many players back

  they have a full roster

 Chuck: 3rd team
 me: oh, that makes it easier
 Chuck: naturally
 me: it’s not happening
9:44 AM Chuck: hurdles aside… would you make the move for Gasol
 me: yeah, if it involved guys that suck for us right now

  but that’s like asking “hurdles aside, would you want $500,000″

  Sure…

9:45 AM Chuck: please… Bass and JG get us close

  if Danny can trade bags of shit for Lee… he can make that deal happen with other teams

 me: that’s shortsighted

9:46 AM he didn’t hypnotized Morey into making that deal… Morey wanted financial flexibility

  so he took back unguaranteed contracts he could waive without repercussion

9:47 AM Danny was good enough to take advantage of that situation… but what other team out there is in a position to take Bass for 2 more years

  I think Lee is still attractive

 Chuck: a team desperate for a smooth shooting big

  a good character guy

9:49 AM me: it’s possible…. I just don’t buy it happening
9:50 AM on top of everything… on top of all the guys that might work… you have to match salaries pretty much exactly

  because of the hard cap

   

10:11 AM Chuck: dragic and gortat for Rondo

10:14 AM me: no

  Dragic?

  don’t you think we can get a lot better for Rondo?

10:16 AM Chuck: um…
 me: I’m not opposed to trading rondo

  but I’m not just going to give him away in a misguided attempt to maybe win a title now

10:17 AM Chuck: those guys aren’t old… they have a shelf life
 me: because if we don’t, now we’re moving into the post-KG/Pierce era with Goran Dragic as your center piece
 Chuck: Jeff Green is the centerpiece… along with Bradley

  and Fab melo

 me: lol

  you’re giving me a stroke

  I’d rather play this season out

10:18 AM and then explore the “blow it up” scenario in July

  I just don’t buy Dragic and Gortat coming in for Rondo mid-season and suddenly making everything better

10:19 AM and that would just mean we’ve burnt our best trade chip

 Chuck: i hear you…

10:20 AM then we’re back to Cousins

 me: are we?
10:21 AM Chuck: i am
 me: that deal is impossible
 Chuck: look… i want a big trade by the deadline… make it happe
 me: a 22 year old super-talented center only making $4 million

  I’ll trade you and a first-round pick to the T-Wolves blog

10:22 AM it’s not happening

  Cousins is max-contract talent

  they’ll want max-contract return for him… and a bunch of picks the C’s don’t have

10:23 AM Chuck: so you want somebody above Gortat but below Cousins
10:24 AM me: lol

  what I want and what the Celtics can do are two different things

10:25 AM no one wants to accept the fact that the C’s have a bunch of mid-level contracts that no one is really clamoring for

  our only chip is Rondo.. and to a lesser extent Pierce

  Bradley and Sullinger are going nowhere

10:26 AM I can’t possibly dream up a scenario where this team trades someone and gets better in the middle of the season

10:28 AM Chuck: but you can dream up a scenario where they improve on their own
 me: Yes

10:29 AM Do you not remember beating the Knicks, Hawks and Pacers a few weeks ago?

 Chuck: a bunch of guys who no one around the league wants because they blow… are going to turn it around

  lol

  3 games out of 40!!!!!

  you hang your hat on that ratio

 me: ok, fine
10:30 AM Chuck: at least optimism in the unknown is natural…
 me: This team has underperforming talent
 Chuck: your optimism in the known boggles my mind
 me: these guys don’t suck

  they’re playing like shit

  but they’re better than their performance

10:31 AM Chuck: then opposing GMs should be smart enough to realize that
 me: We’ve seen them play well

  fine

  You still want Devin Harris?

  Because that what the Gortat/Dragic deal is

 Chuck: oh… you had to go there… i make one mistake
 me: the Harris scnario
10:32 AM It’s fine to trade Rondo if you want

  but do you HONESTLY think a line up of Dragic, Pierce, KG, Bradley and Gortat makes the C’s championship material?

10:33 AM or would you rather roll the dice on Rondo waking up post-all star break and these guys playing up to their potential?

 Chuck: does it make them championship material or make them better?
 me: what’s the point of making them a little better?
 Chuck: i don’t think Rondo is the problem

  we’re only moving him because we can’t move anyone else

  remember

 me: that’s true

10:34 AM These guys are worth more to Boston than they are to other teams

  I don’t see the insane desire to make a mid-season trade

  it smacks of desperation

10:35 AM and unless you’re (a) blowing it up completely or (b) bringing back an All Star… there’s no reason to do it

 Chuck: and… you’re like the wife who always brings up the husband’s one time affair.. every time they argue. That’s what Devin Harris is

  smacks of desperation? they are desperate

  20-21 is desperate

 me: Dude… they’re 6 games out of the 2nd seed

10:36 AM They win tonight… they’re 5 games out

  fuck 20-21.. NY has only 5 more games

 Chuck: and 6 games the other way gets them where… deep in the lottery. works both ways

  the season is half over…

 me: yes

10:37 AM and with 41 games left… they only have to make up 5 games to get to the 2 seed

  What is so damn desperate about that?

 Chuck: because making up 5 games is enormous for a team that cannot string together wins…

10:38 AM believe it or not.. the 6 game winning streak is not the norm

 me: I understand that.

10:39 AM but I also understand that you’re not giving them the best chance to put one together by making a silly mid-season trade

 Chuck: the likelihood of this team – as currently constituted – climbing into the top 4 seeds is highly unlikely… 100-1

  okay… so forget the trades

10:40 AM they’re going to be a 6-8 seed in the best case scenario

 me: so you think they can make up 4 games to get to the 6th seed… but making up 6 to get to 2nd is ridiculous
10:41 AM Chuck: i was being generous by saying 6… i don’t have standings in front of me… more likely they stay stuck in 7/8
 me: I don’t think so

10:42 AM I think the CAN climb to the top 4 seeds

  and the only chance of doing that is getting these guys on the current team to play like they did in that short stretch

  that’s the only way that’s possible

10:43 AM no in-season trade will do it, because then you’re asking even more new guys to figure out how to play with these new guys

  I’m not guaranteeing it will happen… but I’m saying the best chance for any sort of turn around lies within this current roster

 Chuck: so in season trades never help?

  we couldn’t get a big to help?

 me: who the hell said that?

  maybe

 Chuck: you just said throwing new guys in the mix wouldn’t catch on
10:44 AM me: if you can trade bass for a 6-10 PF… then great
 Chuck: how could it be any worse?
 me: Gortat & Dragic for Rondo is worse
10:45 AM Chuck: I’m not advocating for that deal… it was just a twitter suggestion that i passed along…

  no you are making it into one of my demands

 me: how the hell was I supposed to know that was someone else’s idea?
 Chuck: even if it originated with me… i was just throwing it out there..

10:46 AM i started with the Gasol thing…

10:47 AM me: If Ainge can swing a minor deal… I’m all for it

  if you can move Bass for a true big… then that’s great

10:48 AM Chuck: Bass and Green…

  will take more than Bass… he sucks this year

 me: Then you need to get a swingman to back up Pierce

  as inconsistent as Green is… we need him to give Pierce rest

 Chuck: a journeyman will be better than Green

  antawn jamison

10:49 AM me: I guarantee you you’d regret that statement if it happened

  he’s finished

 Chuck: would he really be worse than Green? He generated a 2 points, 0 reb, 0 assist, 0 steal, 0 block in 19 minute stat line the other night
10:50 AM me: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01/gamelog/2013/

10:51 AM Jamison had one monster game. he’s largely sucked otherwise

 Chuck: but we’d get Gasol

  possibly

  maybe

10:52 AM me: I don’t think we’d get Gasol for that

  I just don’t.

  and again… money

10:53 AM C’s would take in almost $20 million in salary

  you can make it a 10 team deal if you want… C’s still have to send out $20 million

I assume at this point, Chuck gave up arguing because he knew he was a beaten man… which is how all of our arguments have ended.  Ever.

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  • Noori

    Aww man no Josh Smith mentions =(

    I agree with Chuck that Danny can bring Kris Jo or some random SF to backup pierce in a trade that sends Green out. I don’t like his contract!

    • wil333

      with Lou williams out, the atl might want to continue rebuildong their team rather than continuing.

    • Me

      everyone knows he is not the answer

  • Randy West

    Guys,

    Other people know that the Celtics roster is full of trolls who just signed bad long-term contracts. Who wants Jason Terry for three years? Who wants Jeff Green, Courtney Lee, or Brandon Bass for four years? NOBODY!!!!!!!

    Only way this team makes a decent pick-up is by surrendering Pierce or Rondo in a deal. PS – We’ve reverted to the days of the “Plan,” when Ainge made mystifying move after mystifying move on the basis of some abstract design that came to fruition only when Kevin McHale betrayed the Timberwolves by giving us Garnett. Get ready for some middle-of-the-pack fun for the next two seasons.

  • Curt

    This post will serve as documentation that John was right all along and will be linked to countless times after the Celtics make it to the NBA Finals next June.

  • KGino

    John really did kill Chuck in this conversation.

    Rondo for Gortat & Dragic? What are you smokin’.. haha.. and 100-1 odds we get a top 4 seed? I’ll gladly bet you a dollar Chuck.

    John is right.. there’s no point in making a trade that will make us slightly better. It is unrealistic to think we’re getting any sort of blockbuster trade if we don’t move rondo or pierce.

    We need to stand pat, make a minor move like Bass for Dalembert (similar salaries).. and hope that this team can flip a switch come playoff time. Worry about blowing it up in July.

    • Me

      no bass, for timofey mozgov

    • Me

      bass for timofey mozgov

    • Reggie35RIP

      Yeh I agree with some sort of minor move to get a big. A blockbuster deal will be too disruptive and I can’t see a decent option for us.

      • Me

        we dont have any pieces untill next years sign-in trades

  • Verde17

    I believe D12 doesn’t want to be a laker! So check this out, Bass is a midrange shooter, we’ve seen that green can hit his 3′s and I think that Jason terry would fit the mike D’Antoni system perfectly. Now we would need a SF to back up pierce, why not go to Detroit and try swap Lee for Tayshaun Prince, Detroit need a quality shooting guard and prince isn’t winning a championship in Detroit any time soon. And after you do all of that you call Delonte West from the D-League to back up AB! So three team deal, LA gets terry green and bass Detroit gets Courtney Lee and maybe Ebanks whos been glued to the bench for a while and BOSTON GET D-CLOWN AND PRINCE!!
    Just let me dream ok!!!!!!!

    • Curt

      While it would make me sick to think we’d cooperate with the Lakers for anything other than Bill Walton…your idea does work even without Ebanks.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ajfo5oa

      • Verde17

        I know it would work without Ebanks but LA would need to make a roster spots since they have a full roster, that’s why added D Ebanks

        • Curt

          Okay, cool. The point is that it works. Do you want to email it to Danny or should I?

          • Verde17

            You do that Curt!!!

        • Me

          i don’t really know if it helps but trading bass for a center is ok mozgov + randolph

      • Me

        we don’t need injured dwight

    • KGino

      Dwight & KG would not work together. Just sayin’

  • Celticsfanatic

    Chuck threw out bogus deals because he’s frustrated with the team and John’s too optimistic for the same reason he said NOT to be the other day: he’s using history as an easy way to show that “this Celtics team” can perform a miracle. I think the answer lies within both your arguments but neither of you touched on it: if the Cs continue to stumble for the next ten games, cash KG, Pierce and all other contracts not named Rondo/Bradley/Sullinger/Melo for picks, up and comers and expiring deals.

    • RedsLoveChild

      You are today`s “voice of reason”.

      Keep the 4 guys you mentioned…gut the rest of the roster for the best assets they can bring in return.

      Living in the past is fine, as long as you keep in mind that there is no future in it. For those who do want to go there…fine, simply pop in the 2008 Finals DVD.

      • KGino

        First off, KG can’t be traded. Not because I don’t want him to be, but because it literally says so in his contract.

        Second of all, the market is terrible right now, especially for our group of players who are playing SO poorly. Who are you guys planning on getting in return for Pierce, Lee, JET, Bass, Green? Surely not someone who makes us a contender right away?.. If so, keep dreaming.

        It doesn’t make sense to gut the roster mid season.. It won’t put us into a free-fall for a good lottery pick, and it won’t make us go further in the playoffs. I’m not okay with finishing in 9th or 10th in the East. That does us NO good.

        Might as well retool a little on the fly if possible.. trade any of the aforementioned players not named Pierce for a 3 point shooter or a big who can rebound and defend, make a run into the playoffs, get Sully & AB some playoff experience (and maybe even Melo, but he needs NBA experience in general.. I’m not convinced that he’ll be a cornerstone center yet anyways unlike most C’s fans), and do the gutting in the offseason.

  • eddysamson

    Why does everyone keep forgetting about this dude called Fab Melo? Hes gotta be better than Collins at this point in his development. Guaranteed to be offensively, maybe not quite there defensively but he will make up for it with huge block numbers.

    Why the hell should we force a trade in this shitty trade market with our shitty trade assets for some big to come in and save the day when by the time spring hits Melo will be potentially NBA ready and come in and make an impact…